Today, you will hear from Ryan Hogan, CEO & Co-Founder of Hunt A Killer. He joined the Navy out of high school, got admitted into a very competitive military program after 6 years of hard work, started multiple businesses that needed multiple pivots, until they ended up failing. In 2016, a few years after Ryan’s last business had failed, he got together with his childhood friend Derrick and together, they began thinking of how they could create experiences for people that felt real. Hunt A Killer was born, and today, with a mission to provide first-class entertainment to mystery and thriller lovers around the world, Hunt A Killer has been listed by Inc. Magazine as the 6th fastest-growing private company in 2020, and one of the World's Most Innovative Companies by Fast Company.
Ash Faraj 00:03
Hey guys, it's ash. And welcome back to another episode of executalks. Today you will hear from Ryan Hogan, CEO and co founder of hunt a killer. He joined the Navy out of high school got admitted into a very competitive military program after six years of hard work started multiple businesses that ended up needing multiple pivots that led him to eventually starting hunter killer, which is now a multi million dollar immersive entertainment company. So Ryan grew up in Baltimore, Maryland, to a mother who worked a full time job at a local university and a father who was a real estate entrepreneur. If I told you I knew a kid who works a job just to spend all his money on upgrading his car to win street races. Well, you would think I'm talking about someone from the Fast and the Furious. were in high school, Ryan was that kid. It wasn't until he took street racing a little too far and ended up blowing up his car on nitrus that he got his wake up call that his parents were divorced and his mom was not going to let him waste his life. So she urged him to do something anything. So after taking advice from a friend, he walked into the local Navy's recruiter office and just signed up to join the Navy. I want to get into hunter killer and that's like what I'm most excited about. But before that, I'm in a high school classroom with you who is Ryan
Ryan Hogan 01:28
Ryan's probably not sitting next to you right now cuz he had cut class and he is at the mall are working on his car doing something that he absolutely should not be doing. Always trying to, you know, figure out my own way and, and a lot of the time that's going against the grain.
Ash Faraj 01:45
So you're a bit of a rebel and
Ryan Hogan 01:47
a bit of a rebel, a quiet rebel. I feel like I've got probably a DD and it's whatever I am most interested in in the moment. That's that's what I follow. So for instance, back in high school, what I was most interested in was cars. And and this was back around the days of Fast and Furious, I would say like we were the Fast and the Furious. And then they made a movie on us. We used to do the highway thing and street race and all that stuff. I'm not condoning that. It was certainly wrong. But that was that was definitely where my focus was was you know, trying to work and save pennies and take that in and buy a new exhaust system or something else
Ash Faraj 02:25
either read somewhere heard somewhere that you sold gummy worms and third grade
Ryan Hogan 02:31
gummy worms. There were these things I they were it was called Creepy Crawlers. And yeah, I would sell those. So I would I would cook them at night. I would bring them in and I would sell them for five cents. But if you wanted like your own special colors or like multicolor, I would take special orders and upcharge for those
Ash Faraj 02:49
Your father was an entrepreneur, right?
Ryan Hogan 02:50
He was and he still is today. And he was big into real estate. And you know, I think there is something that's very entrepreneurial about about real estate and being a real estate agent. And then eventually he had his his own shop and that was great. And now he's living that retired life in Florida.
Ash Faraj 03:08
What impact do you feel like your father had when you were younger? You know, in your teenage years high school years,
Ryan Hogan 03:13
my mom and dad separated around two years old. So I was I was a latchkey kid and my mom had a full time job working at at Johns Hopkins University as a computer buyer she kept that job just so I could have a college degree or have my college paid for when when the time came spoiler I didn't go to college until the Navy made me go but you know is very much seeing my dad on the weekends or every other weekend. And, and being exposed to following your passion and like things aren't always going to go your way. But it's not about that. Like it's really about the journey. It's easy to get lost in the the glitz and the glamour and trying to tackle these big challenges and be rich and all these other things. But that's not the fun. The fun is the highest highs and the lowest lows and I've certainly experienced all of those sometimes both are more on any given day,
Ash Faraj 04:06
when I bring up your childhood or when I you know say you know Ryan's childhood, what what emotion comes to mind,
Ryan Hogan 04:11
freedom, and I say freedom of just like right or wrong. I was constantly doing what what I wanted to do. So you know if the grades weren't there, and that was what I was supposed to do. And so I was I was constantly living in this world. And I still do today of like fear of letting people down because there's this there's this constant thing in the back of your brain of like, Hey, I'm supposed to get good grades, because, you know, my parents want me to get good grades, and now I'm not getting good grades. Therefore my parents are looking at me differently. But I don't want to do the work. Like the work doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand like what this is building towards. I would rather follow this, you know, whatever this is and this has changed many times over the past, you know, 30 plus years.
Ash Faraj 04:53
You joined the Navy after high school, right?
Ryan Hogan 04:55
Ash Faraj 04:56
What urged you to do that
Ryan Hogan 04:57
street race and actually got the best of me Sounds like the the honest story is and this sounds so cliche if you've watched Fast and Furious, but I blew my car up on nitrus. And basically I had this job at local 84, which is the local electrical union out of Baltimore City when I was working at Towson University helping put up a bridge. I was an apprentice. So I was still learning about the electrical field. And I was street racing on the weekends. And my buddy had just blown up his car. So we took the nitrous system out of his car, and we put it on my car, and then we blew my car up the next weekend. So now I'm still living with my mom. And I've got, I've got no way to get to work. And so I lost my job. I was like, Hey, I don't know how to get in. And my mom said, well, you're not like, you're just gonna sit around here. So I went to the recruiters office, my buddy was like, hey, make sure you put aircrewman as your desire. Thankfully, I did thanks to him. I've had an amazing, or at least the first eight years was amazing enlisted career as a helicopter crew, man. And boy, Was that fun?
Ash Faraj 05:56
So how do you remember like the first week or two, when you first joined the Navy, lack of freedom
Ryan Hogan 06:00
I had been I had been in this constant state of of like doing what I want. I'm doing what I want to do. And like every night, hanging out with friends and you know, doing probably stupid stuff, but but still just, you know, hanging out and having fun. And the Navy. I remember specifically, it's interesting question, first time I've ever gotten that question. And I remember specifically, two things about boot camp for the first couple of weeks in the Navy. The first is that there would be this train and we could hear the whistle from the train from our barracks in boot camp. And I would always think to myself, like I'm just going to sneak out in the middle of the night and go hop on that train. And so we called it the Freedom Train. And we would always, you know, the other recruits and I would always talk about what it would be like to go just run and be free. And then I also remember looking at the clock, because every night at nine o'clock, my friends and I would meet up in a parking lot. And so like nine o'clock was like this thing of like, I'm supposed to be doing something else. And every night I would look up the clock and it'd be nine o'clock, I would think about all of my buddies that were sitting in the parking lot and having fun, you know, just doing whatever they wanted to do. It was it was tough.
Ash Faraj 07:12
After years of hard work and getting rejected multiple times, Ryan was finally admitted to one of the most competitive and prestigious military programs in the country, called Seaman to Admiral now this program enables active duty sailors like Ryan to get a college degree at no cost to them and become commissioned officers. Brian felt like he knew he wanted to be a pilot and knew that he wanted to be a business person one day, so he set his eyes on this program to be a catalyst for realizing his dreams, and it took him six years to finally be admitted. Now around the same time, he also started his first business with his wife. The business was called war aware, and it was designed to provide military servicemembers with high performance apparel tailored to the specific needs of training on the job activities. Now Ryan ran into a problem he had anticipated to sell hundreds of 1000s of dollars with inventory but nothing was selling. He called his childhood friend Eric and with him pivoted to creating obstacle courses and races all over the country. Now these races and obstacle courses would bring in revenue through participants and partnerships with sponsors. And all the inventory would now be moved through giveaways to the participants. After a few years though Ryan ran into yet another problem and would have to pivot yet again. So I think it was was in 2008 that you were admitted to this was a seaman to Admiral commissioning program is what I have written here, but you were admitted to that it was like a very selective program. What was that like?
Ryan Hogan 08:40
You know, getting accepted into the SEMA Tamar they call it stay 21 semen tamro. And it was 21 different probe programs rolled up into this one program, which basically was enlisted to commissioning so the Navy takes takes you out of whatever you're doing gives you orders to and nrotc unit associated with a college, they pay your normal pay and your normal benefits and you go to school with a commitment on the end of that, that you'll receive a commission and serve a certain amount of time and getting selected for that was validating to me because it wasn't always it wasn't always lonely and the lack of freedom or resentful for the military. You know, I really took a couple years. And that's that's a story for years. But it took a couple years to really get acclimated to the military. But once something clicked and I figured out like what is it that I wanted to do? I set my sights on it. And you know, I wanted to be a pilot. Well, two things growing up, I wanted to be a pilot in a business person, whatever that meant to me when I was when I was 10 or 11 years old, getting selected to Sema Tamar was one more step into becoming a Navy pilot. And that was that lifelong kind of dream. And it wasn't easy. And what I mean by that is like, you know, it's easy to say, hey, in 2008, I was selected into a senior Tamar program. But that wasn't the first application. That was the third application. And that was six years of work getting to a point of where I felt my application would be competitive. That was a long rode into figuring out, I'm stealing this quote from Randy Porsche. But he said brick walls are there to keep people that don't want it bad enough out. And like, I read that book in 2000, and probably five, six, it's called the last lecture, highly recommend it. But like when I read that, quote, it just stuck with me and I was like, there is nothing that's going to stop me. And I carry that through today, which is like business is the vehicle, your goal is the destination. So like this, this company, while it's doing amazing things is is a vehicle to, for me to realize our visions and to to explore and to be free, you know, the company may grow drastically, it may it may sometimes decline, like, it's gonna be all over the place, but it's the vehicle that's going to get me to where I know I'm going
Ash Faraj 10:44
in 2008 also in the same year, which is I thought was kind of interesting, because it wasn't it wasn't the best time to start a business. But in 2008 was when you started your first business, is that right?
Ryan Hogan 10:53
Yeah, I had already started this company. We were on shore duty, I was doing testing development out of Pax river, Maryland, flying on 60 Sierras and and we started this company called war where my wife and I and the whole idea premise was that like this was going to be the performance apparel specifically created for the warfighters of America. You know, we were gonna compete with Under Armour and Kevin Plank didn't work out the way we expected. But, but we gave it a run. And again, you know, it's part of the story part of the journey. It's really just just her and I it was a lot of lessons learned. We had gotten a little bit of seed funding, we had purchased some inventory, we had a whole bunch of inventory, we had no overhead A year later, none of it was selling. We're like, what are we doing? This isn't nothing's moving. Like I had this idea that if you build it, they will come so like, you know, this was back in the day where Yahoo had the e commerce market lockdown. So we had this Yahoo ecommerce platform, hit launch on the store. And like was just waiting for the sales to come. Yeah, which they didn't.
Ash Faraj 11:51
It's which in that business ended up failing, right,
Ryan Hogan 11:54
I would say we ended up figuring it out, it did fail. And I can get into the reasons of that. But pivot is a strong word. But we'll just say pivot, which is when the clothes weren't selling, that was the problem. And the problem was I needed to figure out a way to move $150,000 worth of performance apparel, whether it was to military members or not, I had to clear this inventory. And so I wound up calling my friend Derek Smith, who I met in elementary school, because he would always make fun of me on the bus. But we became really good friends. And we wound up starting a company called Run for your lives. And that was the first ever five kilometer obstacle course race, except participants were chased by zombies. So if you think back 2010 you've got tough mudder, warrior, dash, Spartan Race, all these other races, and then you had us and everybody didn't know how to treat us, but like we wound up doing some really incredible things. The idea though, was that we were going to move a whole bunch of apparel as the the giveaway for these events. And and that was the agreement between you know, Run for your lives LLC. And we're we're LLC and we did it like we we moved over $150,000 worth of inventory. Like we just kept going because the agreement was in place, but eventually Run for your lives acquired we're aware, but then Run for your lives, unfortunately, went away.
Ash Faraj 13:10
So that in that project was lasted, like less than three years that right?
Ryan Hogan 13:15
Yeah, we started off with our first event back in 2011. We put about 12,000 participants through this course we made $733,000 in revenue, like we just had done all these amazing things. And then we scaled it the next year, we went from 733 to 5.2 or something like that 5.2 to eight point something, it was incredible. The problem is, is that the market just went away almost overnight. So we were like in the third year. We weren't watching our finances, we thought things were just gonna keep going. They didn't go and we had spent all the money trying to build this amazing company there. We were after that seems like you decided to take a break from entrepreneurship or maybe not. But it seemed like after that, you know, there was kind of a gap where you kind of focused on your work at the Navy. Is that right? Yeah, I mean, that's what I like to say my wife would disagree wholeheartedly with that like because the company bankrupted in 2013 I also got my commissioning in 2013 a lot of things that's where I was foreshadowing earlier when I said I wound up getting neither to a certain extent or they both came to a head at this at the same time, which is the company collapse and then I lost my eligibility to become a pilot. So I wanted to becoming a Surface Warfare Officer. So still got my commissioning, just went down to a different specialty, which was unfortunate for for a variety of reasons. But honestly, like we moved out to San Diego and I started calling people to put together another event and we got that almost Navy 10 miler and we got it almost crossed the goal line for a variety of reasons that dropped through so then I started this company called Polonius, and it was the first gifting service where you just put in your contacts and your credit card and we automatically send gifts for anniversaries and birthdays and all these different things. I still love that idea, but we we just couldn't get any traction on it. So then I went from that to hunter killer. Hunter killer got traction and now Now I don't talk about her show those others.
Ash Faraj 15:05
If I told you there's this interactive, immersive mystery game that challenges you to catch a killer, and you get detailed clues like letters, newspaper articles, forensic reports, crime scene photos, codes, and it's an experience almost like you're living inside of a TV show in episode, like as if you were a homicide investigator and you follow the trail of clues to catch a killer. Would you believe that this is a concept that is a part of one of the fastest growing most innovative companies today? In 2016, a few years after Ryan's previous business had failed, he got together again with his childhood friend, Derek. And together, they began thinking of how they could create experiences for people that felt real hunter killer was born. And today with a mission to provide first class entertainment to mystery and thriller lovers around the world hunter killer has been listed by Inc magazine as the sixth fastest growing company in 2020. And one of the world's most innovative companies by Fast Company. You know, before we get to the hunter killer, I really want to ask you went through, I guess, war aware and it's in some context, it failed. And then what did you learn from each of those experiences personally, like, what did you take away from those experiences?
Ryan Hogan 16:16
Hey, there's a lot of takeaways, but on the personal side is just this never give up. Right? Like, it was so easy when this stuff is collapsing to just say like, well just invested 357 years of my life into entrepreneurship and getting this stuff off the ground just to watch it just burn up in front of me like I will never get back to that place. And trying to battle those Gremlins or those demons as you as you push through is difficult because like the reality, I feel like I've been struck by lightning twice, honestly, like and I say that because one of the hardest things to do in entrepreneurship is product market fit. And even once you have product market fit, that doesn't necessarily mean you can scale it. And so the fact that we've been able to be a part of another company that is scaled this time from zero to 50 million this year, we're on track for for 100 million, like the fact that we've been able to do that is just like that. It's incredible. But that doesn't happen all the time and trying to get over that mental block of like, I have to start all over. Because that's not the reality, like you now have seven years of just lessons where you might not be able to start, like just jump right into another $10 million company, but you at least avoid avoid all those pitfalls and get get to where you're going much faster.
Ash Faraj 17:32
Yeah, I'm sad, because we didn't we talk about investing so much time in your life. It's like, I gotta I've already I've already. It's, it's it's hard to go back. That's that's, that's a very true, very true. So at some point, down the line, you got together with your childhood friend named Derek. And then you created a live event in 2016, where you transformed the 200 acre camp ground into a lifelike crime scene. And then when I when I first read that I was like, What the heck are they thinking? Like? Where did this even come from? And like, what are the what are this? How do you think of this stuff?
Ryan Hogan 18:02
It seems to be like the crazier in the wild are the ideas more, the more people gravitate towards it, which is great, because like, then you can just explore these, these pockets of of stories and experiences. And people would be like, well, that's just crazy. And it's like, wow, you know what, I bet you it's interesting enough and weird enough that there's gonna be a bunch of people that that will participate. That was kind of the concept. But you know, what's interesting about Derek and I is Derek and I were also Run for your lives. And so like, we already had this experience in live entertainment. And when we thought about Run for your lives, or the goal of Run for your lives, you know, our vision there was to bring the world together. The idea or concept behind everything that we did it Run for your lives was all about immersing folks in a story, immersing the participants in a story, like the goal wasn't like, let's just go set up an obstacle course race and have people run away from zombies with flag football belts on the whole goal. There was like for a half a second, if you believed you were actually in a post apocalyptic environment, like Mission accomplished. And so for us, it was really just a natural evolution of of of that, that sort of philosophy very, very, very similar. You know, for hunter killer, it was a matter of where's the starting point? Well, you know, what are the general themes, or genres, which are emerging right now? 2010 was the walking dead and zombies. Fast forward to 2016 and it's all about my favorite murder and, and sword and scale and all these different podcasts that are just creating these micro communities. So we're like, great, we have a market. Great. We have a theme. What are we doing? And in 2016 was really also interactive theater like the Off Broadway sleep no more escape rooms coming over from from Europe and Asia. And then obstacle race still kind of hanging out. But the whole concept was like how do we take these three things and just combine them and just immerse folks into a just a wild and crazy experience? So that's that's how it happened.
Ash Faraj 20:02
Somehow the idea was also from when you were doing in boot camp, like when you were, you know that the was it didn't the Navy did such a great job of emulating a real life situation. And that also played a role is that was that right?
Ryan Hogan 20:15
Yeah. And then again, that started off with Run for your life. So there's this school called, called sere school s er II. And it's an acronym for survival, evasion, resistance and escape. It is a program where seals and aircrewman and really folks that have the potential to be to be rolled up overseas and become a prisoner. It is a training program for those folks to go through before you deploy to understand different things and strategies and tactics that you can use, should you wind up in a situation like that. And what I can say about it is it is it feels very real. The the job that the Navy and the the army has a program, all the services really have a program, but the job that they've been able to do to break and distort reality, you know, there are times I remember sitting in the cell thinking to myself, like, you know, we were like 10 miles away from Canada, like, did we accidentally during the survival part, like, are we in Canada right now, and like we are actually rolled up. And, and so like, what I tried to do is recreate that that type of escapism, recreate that type of environment, because it's just, it's a wild place to be.
Ash Faraj 21:31
What's the most basic way I can explain unto killer to somebody if I was going out with my friends tonight. And I said, Hey, I just talked to Ryan, he, you know, he started hunter killer. They're like, what is that? What do I say
Ryan Hogan 21:41
it's an immersive experience that's delivered right to your doorstep. But then I think what your friend would say, is what we do this in all of our experiences, but these are physical experiences. So clues and items and correspondence that we put together, and you can take and with a group of friends enjoy an immersive story based game. And that's the that's really our competitive advantage. And the way to think about this is like instead of going out and and getting monopoly or Pictionary or Cards Against Humanity, or any of these other products, where you can have an experience together, like we our story first. And so the first thing and our competitive advantage in this industry and why I think we've been so successful is because everything we do starts with the story. And after we get through that story, we go into character development. And after that character development, we get into setting and now we've got this amazing story. And because we're story first Now we take that story, and we translate it, we put it through this process called scaffolding. And we take that story, we put it through that process and out the other end comes out this beautiful case files and postcards and and authentic items and fingerprints that tells the story that we already drafted. So it's something that you order, like it's an all immersive game that you order, is that what it is? Yeah, and we've got a couple different versions of it. So for instance, if you went to hunter killer, calm right now, what you would probably see is an application. And that application runs you through a process to see if you're, if you're right for hunter killer, and we're right for you. So we get more explanatory throughout that application. And out the other end, you get a choose your plan page. And there's a subscription. So one of our products and the flagship for the past three years has been this episodic storytelling, so this monthly membership and we deliver experiences, you can binge, you can expedite, you can buy a six month a full season two full seasons. But that's been the the episodic storytelling. Now what we're getting into and what we're seeing high demand for our premium experiences, and retail experiences,
Ash Faraj 23:44
you know, what I find really interesting is that people hear Oh, it's about the journey is not about the destination a lot. I think to put it into context, like for you for your life, it's just it just seems like every experience you go through, it somehow contributes to the next experience, which i think that's that's really interesting. You know, it's like, somehow the Navy, your experience with the Navy is connected to hunter killer you're gonna experience with both for your lives experience. So yeah, I mean, I just, I just thought that stuff, I think it's interesting.
Ryan Hogan 24:09
Yeah, I mentor or coach, some entrepreneurs, some early entrepreneurs, and like, what I tell them is, like, don't fall in love with with your idea because, because for me, business has been about a journey and I could put a.on almost everything that I've done and like connect the dots to where to where I am today. So whether it was a different decision, whether it's similar category, whether it's you know, better decisions, whatever the case may be things that we're putting into place. It is a constant journey, and like you can see where the line connects all the way through and that's that's why it's it's not about like your idea, like honestly, and a lot of early ideas like they just suck to us. They sound like the most amazing thing ever, and that becomes our baby. But that's not the reality and typically your product looks nothing like you first intended.
Ash Faraj 24:58
You know another thing I think I thought that was quite interesting is that you mentioned that entertainment has become so passive and obvious this new concept of active entertainment is kind of a new is the future, I guess what makes you feel that way? And then where do you see how much of of a future Do you think this has like five years from now? Do you think all entertainments going like most entertainments going to be that way,
Ryan Hogan 25:20
I don't think that there will ever be a world where there's not passive entertainment. But you know, I believe deeply in the future of interactive entertainment. And, and, like, I continue to validate that hypothesis by the customers that I talked to, and the folks that we expose this type of format, and medium to, you know, it's easy to see and it's always the younger generations, like, like my kids that that are that are further along on some of these things, then then old folks like me, but you know, the whole idea of community around interactive entertainment is already happening. You know, two years ago, I sat on fortnight game with my son, and we watched a the marshmallow. I think that's what they call him. I'm not big into DJ, but DJ Marshmallow, I watched him put on a live concert, inside of the experience. And like that was mind blowing. And that just like got my mind thinking of like, what can we do? And it's this whole concept of just bringing people around an experience and having them a part of that experience. Like, you know, a lot of movies, especially old movies are all about, like, you're just feeding us the information. We're just watching it go by, like at Hunter killer, we make you a character. And how exciting is that?
Ash Faraj 26:38
Something I look for when I decide to partner with someone or hire someone?
Ryan Hogan 26:42
Ash Faraj 26:44
Something I've struggled with as a leader has been
Ryan Hogan 26:47
probably accountability. I am not very abrasive, or, or very, like, you know, like I patient, confrontational. Yeah, there you go. Like if I can improve on one thing, it's probably or many things. But like, if there were a top thing, it's probably being able to be uncomfortable in moments and environments where critical feedback or candid conversations are, are warranted.
Ash Faraj 27:12
When I start to feel the urge to be lazy.
Ryan Hogan 27:14
I called Eric, see what he's up to. If I'm playing video games or something with my with my son, and I'm like, Yeah, I should probably be working right now.
Ash Faraj 27:24
Ryan Hogan 27:25
Yeah, yeah, I'll call tear reinspired all over again,
Ash Faraj 27:26
one setback or failure in my early 20s that I will never forget his
Ryan Hogan 27:31
bankruptcy. Like that sucks.
Ash Faraj 27:34
And that was a time. Just remember that you were married at the time, right? Yeah. Wow. Your wife. How did you feel about that? Like squishy? Like we're not doing business again?
Ryan Hogan 27:44
Oh, yeah. The conversations around Navy 10 miler and florists and hunter killer were were tough.
Ash Faraj 27:50
The sweetest moment I felt in my entire career was when
Ryan Hogan 27:53
watching people follow their passion, even if it's not at Hunter killer. I don't know, there's always rewarding to see people, whether it's a hunter killer, or going off on their own, to follow their passions. And because I know what that feels like,
Ash Faraj 28:06
obviously, I have, I have a long career ahead of me. But if I could be remembered for just one thing, it would be
Ryan Hogan 28:11
helping people find their why it's not about the company. It's not about the Navy business. It's not about any of this. For me, like when I think about my why it's about like, helping people have the same feeling that I have right now. wherever that may be doing whatever that may be.
Ash Faraj 28:28
If I were stranded on an island and had access to one meal, it would be
Ryan Hogan 28:33
surf and turf. I mean, nothing can be one meal. You got to do servitor
Ash Faraj 28:39
Are you kidding me?
Ryan Hogan 28:40
What are you doing? Are you doing pizza? What are you doing?
Ash Faraj 28:42
I'm doing a Dick's Deluxe. Thank you so, so much for listening. Now if you enjoyed this episode, please please please leave us a quick rating and review. It takes literally a few seconds but it means the world to us. Thank you so much for listening, and we will see you again next week. Take care Bye