Buzzfeed's First Chief Content Officer: Melinda Lee

Summary

Melinda Lee began her professional life as an attorney out of college, but transitioned into the media business.  She admits that she’s always had a passion for pop culture and being in the media business in some form, but didn’t think it was possible because she didn’t' see many people that looked like her in media.  Also, her parents’ journey of immigrating to the U.S. from Taiwan and the pressure of being a "doctor or lawyer" influenced her heavily to pursue a career in law.  If you have immigrant parents or know someone who does, you know what the pressure of not wanting to let them down feels like.  She then realized she could practice law in the media space.  This is what eventually led her to be in the media business.

Today, Melinda is the President of StageTEN's Media Network, a technology-driven platform that is changing the future of how content is monetized.  Instead of monetizing through 30-second advertising, content creators can now livestream and easily offer actual products and IP through their livestreams.

Podcast Transcript

Note:  There may be errors to this transcript (some funny, some confusing - we used an automated transcription software!)

Ash Faraj  00:06

Hey guys, welcome to another episode of executive talks. In this episode, you get to hear from Melinda Lee. She began her professional life as an attorney out of college, but then transitioned into the media business. And she admits it. She's always had a passion for pop culture and being in the media business in some form, but didn't think it was possible because she didn't see many people that look like her in media and because of her parents journey of immigrating to the US from Taiwan. Now, if you have immigrant parents or know someone who does, you know what the pressure of not wanting to let them down feels like. So Melinda grew up in South Jersey to immigrant parents who traveled a windy road to get from Taiwan to the United States. They first moved to Tokyo, then Canada, before ending up in South Jersey with Melinda and her older sister, after high school, Melinda would end up studying psychology, and that was due to an influence from her older sister and a fascination with human behavior. I am joined today by the president of stage 10s Media Network, and formerly buzz feeds. First Chief Content Officer Melinda Lee, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. I always start off with this question. If I'm in a high school classroom with you, who are you in high school?

Melinda Lee  01:18

Gosh, that changed from ninth grade to 12th grade, I guess in ninth grade, I was pretty shy, I didn't play too many sports, I went to school, I probably wasn't tardy. And I was, you know, I think just your typical student, I just never really felt like I really belonged. And that was me in ninth grade. And I remember being like a lot of feel like I belong, I really do. And I would look at, you know, some of some of the more popular kids and then would play sports or they'd run for Student Council. And I remember thinking, that would be really nice. And now when I look back, I'm like, Oh, I wanted a sense of belongingness in my school was also a really good sport school. So I decided then more I'm like, Well, if I want to be like that, and experience, but that's like, Well, then, you know, what are the things that I need to do? So I, you know, I ran for student council, I joined the tennis team, I played the class. And then I would say, by the time I was in 12th, grade, I really went from feeling like I didn't belong to a place where I felt like, okay, you know, this is, this is a cool place to grow up. And, but I gotta tell you something, I never forgot what it felt like to not feel like I belonged. I know what it's like, like to feel like I didn't belong or not have a lot of friends or want to participate in something that, that I just didn't have the nerve to,

Ash Faraj  02:50

I imagine there was, like, going from not feeling like you belong to all of a sudden, like, you know, feeling like you belong. That was gradual, right? It wasn't just it wasn't like a moment where it's like, okay, all of a sudden, I'm in this category now. Or

Melinda Lee  03:02

I would say that I felt at first sort of like belongingness to want to want to be included to I'm going to run or run for Student Council. I want to be a representative. I think that's what I ran.

Ash Faraj  03:15

Yeah,

Melinda Lee  03:15

and not being like, okay, and if I don't win, well, it'll be embarrassing, but I'll get over it. You know. And while I am completely capable of feeling embarrassed about things, I think that that's the type of thing that I will take that risk, because it's like, hey, if it works out, then it takes me closer to the thing that I'm curious about, you know, and I'm curious is that would feel like to feel like I belonged, you know, to feel like I was included?

Ash Faraj  03:45

Yeah, by the way I can totally relate to the college, I think was my freshman year, I ran for like freshman senator, and there was literally like one other person that ran. So just one of us that was like, Well, if I lose, I'm gonna be made fun of and I actually I did end up losing and my friends didn't make fun of me. And then after two months, it's like, Okay, well, that wasn't that back. I mean, I did feel embarrassed for a little bit, but,

Melinda Lee  04:04

and you kind of sit there and it's like, well, like, why not? I think what's lacking a lot when we're younger is the wisdom to know that you'll be fine.

Ash Faraj  04:14

In college, you studied psychology. Is that right?

Melinda Lee  04:16

Yes, I did.

Ash Faraj  04:18

I guess looking back, did you go into that? Was that kind of random?

Melinda Lee  04:20

No, it wasn't random. I, I have to say that. I have an older sister who studied psychology, which is how he was introduced to me initially, and I just kind of watched her and I was like, What is psychology and she had a book and I started reading what it was and and then I was just interested. I actually love and Marvel and I'm so curious about other people and what makes them tick. People are complicated. And I find that like, yeah, like there's supposed to be tension sometimes. And once people like it's not always a happy, happy world where we all get along. And I do find that the times where I do have friction with people, one of my first things is to be like, what, why they did? What is it about, like their experiences in life? Or what is it that happened, or that would be their response or their reaction. And that is always so interesting to me now. And you know, as I started meeting more people, and early in my career, I spent a lot of time thinking about what made a person do the things that they did.

Ash Faraj  05:34

So after college, Melinda committed to law school, mostly because of the influence from her parents. And after law school, she worked as a law clerk for a year mediating between families and Family Court working through divorces or with juveniles, and she admits it, although she learned a lot about people, she had unrealistic expectations of what it meant to be an attorney. You got your degree in psychology, and then you decided to go to pursue a law degree right after your psychology degree

Melinda Lee  06:01

did for whatever reason I was on, I was under a lot of pressure, probably my own, just insecure, overachieving, you know. So that wanted to get my law degree as quickly as possible, and to be as young as possible. And I think that this is a little bit due to my Asian American migrant parent, you know, upbringing of like, just trying to, you know, my parents, they, my father was an engineer by trade, and my mom, she did very well in in Taiwan at a time, you know, a woman who was chosen to be able to work at the Taiwanese bank. So she was really accomplished, and that she scored really well on on tests, when they got married, and they decided to go to Tokyo, and then from there, Canada, and then they came to the US. So it's a really fun migration story of how they ended up, you know, in the US, and I think, you know, when they looked at the US, and they were thinking of professionals, you know, I think that their dream was like, hey, our kid, you know, we want our kids to be a, you know, a lawyer or a doctor. Because to them, that's what professionals, I decided to go down the mall path. And for a while, I did think that, okay, this is it, this is this is my dream, I'm going to be a lawyer, and I thought it was going to be magical when I finally became one. And then later, you know, I started to go back to my interest, which was, you know, media, essentially. And I started to learn more about, you know, IP, intellectual property, I chose long, because I felt like I wanted to make my parents happy. And I had a, let's just say, an unrealistic mystic expectation of what it would mean to be an attorney. So I wanted to do it as quickly as possible. But I will say that I don't regret that choice, because it did teach me a lot. As far as being able to synthesize a lot of information, a lot of words and a lot of reading and one night, and it taught me how to think in a certain way, and be able to create arguments and to be able to write in a persuasive manner.

Ash Faraj  08:26

I can totally relate to the, to your parents, my parents, grad school, my my dad said, you have to be their doctor or lawyer, okay? Because he's also

Melinda Lee  08:35

looking at us look at us.

Ash Faraj  08:39

And I said, I said, Okay, can you just give me at least one other option? And he said, okay, minimum minimum is engineering. So I had to study engineering, but then halfway through I'm like, I mean, I don't really like this but I have to do it or my family down and so what I really loved obviously, is storytelling, you know, people in psychology but that wasn't enough so I totally can relate to

Melinda Lee  09:01

any of it is is that you know, you you did it and and you start to realize, you know, your your your kind of your threshold to be able to learn and get through subject matters and may not necessarily hit your passion points, but to be able to like get through it. I think it's such an accomplishment it's kind of tough right? Because it's like your parents they love you and that's why they they want that for you because they think it's going to make your life easier. But there's just so much more you know that I guess happiness fulfillment joy like could be found if you can if you can find a way to do what you love.

Ash Faraj  09:42

You mentioned to me that you loved you know media or like you know you loved media and but you did law anyway but you know because your parents at what point did you realize you love the content media was it was it like when you're really young or was it

Melinda Lee  09:54

I think for me, I I knew that I loved media and different types of media. Since it since I was a kid, I was, you know, my mom would always yell at me for wanting to watch TV rather than studying or, you know, I'd always have the radio on. Or if I, if I really liked, you know, an artist, we had a piano, as a lot of Asian kids do. Instead of playing the classical music, I would try and like figure out how to play the pop song that I would hear on the radio. So I was very much, you know, a typical, I think, American kid that like pop culture. And what was said to me on all the major media channels, you know, through at the time radio, TV movies, I just never knew that it was possible to be in that business. Because I, you know, I'm, I'm, you know, this, this, this kid from, from South Jersey, you know, and my parents want me, you know, my, their dream for me is to be a doctor or a lawyer. And yeah, and I didn't really have many positive role models that I saw in media, I didn't really have much of a network, and I didn't see a lot of, you know, faces that look like mine in media. So I didn't think that it was a possibility. As I was in you know, law school was like, Okay, I'm interested in intellectual property, though, because copyright trademark, oh, I wanted to learn about, you know, the, the laws of parody and fair use, you know, and these are all things that, that, you know, you you get to practice in media. Then I lived in Philadelphia for my last year in law school. And I really got into the to the indie music scene there, a lot of singer songwriters. And I just, I mean, that's what I did every night, I would go hear music and listen to music. And then I'd want to I mean, since I was in law school, I was like, Okay, well, let me figure out what are, what do I need to know on the legal side, you know, so that it was like, okay, contract management contracts, I found myself wanting to spend the time on things that revolved around you.

Ash Faraj  12:16

Know, Melinda's first job in media was at MTV Networks, where she would lead and manage licensing and rights for the International and digital media teams. Through her work, she discovered a problem. When MTV would launch a show in the US, they would have to pay for the rights to the content, but only for a certain country for a certain amount of time. The problem is, if MTV wanted to launch the same show in new countries, well, they'd have to pay again. And if the show became very popular, well, they would have to pay more money to renew the rights to the content. So she discovered that creating and owning original content was important. And she decided to leave him TV network to explore other opportunities. She first joined a startup called Joost, which was started by the cofounders of Skype. Now, this was an Internet TV service. Obviously, today, we have Hulu and other services. But back in 2007, this was unheard of, after a year and a half, Melinda left juiced in 2008, with like minded people that she had met there at the startup, to start a new video and music licensing agency, they would conduct interviews with celebrities and create their own video and music content, which they would license out to content businesses. And after almost four years, the company that Melinda had started with her former colleagues partnered with a company, I'm almost certain you've heard of Getty Images, one of the largest content businesses in the world. And you didn't make some good friends at MTV Networks. Some people are getting that eventually, you know, would come back to help you later in your career, but I won't I want to get to that in just a second. But it was your first time starting something starting a company like how was that

Melinda Lee  13:51

mean? I would say that it was something that I was lucky to be able to do. And I think that the culture at that time, there were a lot of people that were starting companies, and in fact, I actually left them TV to go to a startup called juiced. where, you know, that was founded by the guys who created cars on Skype. And this was their third venture in the peer to peer space. And they were it was pre Hulu, and it was, you know, video, a video platform that utilize, you know, peer to peer technology. So that was going on. And then while I was there, I also you know, found found folks that that were like minded and wanted to, you know, start start a company in, in content and an interviews where we could actually create content that could be caught into different pieces and you can license out the audio and you can license out the video and the idea was for it to be like let's just say versatile is possible

Ash Faraj  15:00

while you're running your business, the 2008 recession happened,

Melinda Lee  15:04

correct? Yeah, it was, it was really hard because the model that that we had, you know, it was, it was like, Okay, we've got it, we're gonna get all the rights, we're gonna get all the right pieces, we're going to make sure that this content is evergreen, so that you can always license it yet. It's timely. We started first with indie artists, we moved on to chefs, you know, and at the time, you know, they weren't called influencers at the time they were called a Liberty's. You remember,

Ash Faraj  15:37

I didn't know that? No, I had no idea.

Melinda Lee  15:40

Yeah, it was in 2008. And right around that time, was when, you know, the spending, the licensing, the business development, with larger media companies who we bought would be our partners, you know, started to started to slow down. We also did a deal with Getty Images, where we, you know, we're like, okay, you're, there's this content, there's our video, you know, these are videos of voice, you know, you're gonna get the narrative voice for pieces, where people are going to pull together content and larger pieces, and it's all here. So you can use a clip, you can also use the audio, and we were part of their library. And we were hoping that that would you know, that we could see lots of licenses. And you know, that that was that was Those were some tough years, because we do feel that, at the time, you know, barrier to entry to create your own content was competing against actually licensing content that was already there.

Ash Faraj  16:43

So so in 2010, you know, fast forward a couple years after the recession, you kind of mentioned a little bit, but obviously, you know, Getty Images partners with your company, now you're working for Getty, Getty Images, and you've worked for them for the next three and a half years of your career, you knew, you know, talk about the relationship between you and the Getty execs before even that partnership happened, like was talking about that importance, because there maybe it wasn't important, but I feel that maybe the early, you know, relationship building you did at MTV Networks, did that pay off? Or did maybe it didn't pay off. But

Melinda Lee  17:14

yeah, I would say that it did. You know, one, one of the way that I worked with Getty Images when I was at MTV, you know, their content licensing company, Getty. So we licensed a lot of content from them images. But one of the companies that we also licensed music from individually was pump audio. And they eventually were acquired by Getty Images, because Getty was trying to become the one stop shop for all types of content that you would put into one of your shows. So it would be imagery, footage, and also music. And so I had also worked with, you know, pump audio, and the CEO of pump audio, Steve Ellis, and eventually, you know, he ended up a Getty. And so by working with Getty, when I when I was at MTV, I had, you know, a relationship with several folks there that eventually when I had my own company, I was able to, you know, contact and, and I'd be like, Hey, will you do a deal? Please, you know, and honestly, they had so many customers and clients that for us, it was a really great way to get our content out there to see if you know the market was ready, or if it was the right time for the market to actually have video content available for licensing, if it would be a model that that would work.

Ash Faraj  18:41

You go from working at MTV, to starting your own company, and then go transitioning back into like a larger organization. Can you talk about that transition a little bit

Melinda Lee  18:51

when I when I worked at MTV, because I was part of international, I was already working these crazy hours where I felt like anytime I got an email, I needed to respond right away. And then I went to a startup which was juiced and which was also a global international company, and at the time was very in bash, it was about it being decentralized without also having like remote offices just all over the world. So everybody was on their own, you know, time, timezone. So you were either you were working through certain hours, or you were just working all the time. And then when I when I started my own company, you know, with my partner, it was just like we were we were on all the time because the more time you put into the company, you felt like you were getting something back in return. You know, so all of it still felt the same as far as how how hard I worked. While it might be different as as far as what our goals are, or the company may be different as far as being publicly traded, being private. Being a startup, overall, the work feels very much the same.

Ash Faraj  20:04

I really love that perspective. And I really appreciate you sharing that because I'm sure you you kind of feel this and you see this, there's culture of like entrepreneurship, like, I want to start my own business like, No, I can't I want to work for you. But it's like, it's so it's like this is you're doing the same thing really, in entrepreneurship, you're taking a lot more risk and you. So it might be a good idea for you to, you know, work within an organization first. So that's such a powerful perspective. And I love that you shared that I really appreciate that.

Melinda Lee  20:31

The one pitfall for folks, when they go to different companies, especially if you tend to be entrepreneur, authorial and have that mindset is that you go in thinking, This is what needs to happen, this is going to work, that I think that the that the thinking that that needs to happen is sure you want to you want to do something that's going to work, but it has to work for that company, I think that you might be starting something new at a company and and so it feels like you're, you know, the the thought process and the problem solving and the alignment and trying to get something off the ground and moving you know, even just a little bit so that you could build an architect feels very much the same. But then it's like what your goals are, what your mission are, you know, what your mission will be is really important to look at the company and where they are in the space and where they want to go.

Ash Faraj  21:25

Yeah, that's that's a perfect segue to my next question I was gonna be in 2014, you decided to move on from Getty. And you know, you'd like you mentioned, you went to go work for Hearst magazine and and Meredith Corporation, and then eventually landing in BuzzFeed in 2018. But a common question I hear, you know, people do in their career ask is, you know, people that are not necessarily I want to start my own business. say is that, how long should I stay at a company? And I guess the question for you is, how do you base your career decisions on whether to stay or to leave? Or like, how do you decide on what to do next? Or how long should stay at a particular company?

Melinda Lee  21:59

Right, I have to say that I've never really subscribed to a certain time period that I should stay. But I think also in the nature of what I generally do, like feel like, if we've built what it is that we're building, is there more for us to do in order to grow, and that's always the case, right? Because usually, with a business, you know, they always want to grow. But as far as the work that that I like to do, which is usually areas that are that are relatively novel, you know, where you're still exploring, you're still trying to figure out what the models are, many times when you start to lay down the the foundation, and you can start to actually test and the infrastructure is there and it's set up to scale, then then for me, I don't really feel like that I need more closure, you know, and, and to stay a certain amount of time. So what I start to do is I look at the market and the types of models that interests me, if there's an opportunity that excites me, then I'll do it, you know, I'll move towards that. And hopefully, it works out.

Ash Faraj  23:16

So in other words, you're kind of self aware in the sense that you know that you love experimenting. And so if your job starts to feel like you're not experimenting, then you feel like it's time to move on. Is that right?

Melinda Lee  23:29

Right, I like to experiment I like to build. So there's a piece where if I don't, if I don't get the chance to actually execute and build and lay down the tracks, then that's a bummer. So I do, there's a payoff for me to to actually lay lay down the tracks to lay down the, the mechanisms towards measuring growth, for measuring success, and then getting it off the ground. And then when it comes to actually like, okay, now what we need is someone to just steer the ship, and to make sure that we don't need to course correct too much, because we know that this works for me when you talk, you talk about self assessment. And this is something that I do quite often, I have self assessed that I probably don't feel as fulfilled if I'm the person who is just steering the ship, where we know where we're going to go and we don't want to veer off course, I like the part of thinking like, Hey, we want to get there. Alright, how do we how do we do that? Here's what we've been doing. Should we find another way of doing it? Or if we're going to get there this way? What else could we be seeing? Right so that that's the adventure that that I like.

Ash Faraj  24:51

If you've heard of Food Network magazine, cosmopolitan Men's Health, women's health in the Oprah Magazine. Well, it's partly to Melinda's credit, because After Getty Images, she went to work for the parent company of these brands called Hearst magazines as the VP of digital content and audience development. And after being there for almost two years, she went to Meredith Corporation, which is another large corporation that owns media brands, like People Magazine, entertainment magazine Shape magazine, along with many others. Then in 2018, she got a call from a recruiter at BuzzFeed, and joined BuzzFeed as their first ever Chief Content Officer.

Melinda Lee  25:31

And wasn't really aggressively looking to leave Meredith. But I did very much have a company crush on BuzzFeed, because I had been with quite a few, you know, companies where we were starting something new. We were coming up with our success metric, and we're trying to we're essentially trying to grow our audience. And I don't know if you've had to do this, but it's really hard to do.

Ash Faraj  26:00

Oh, my gosh,

Melinda Lee  26:01

right. It's, it's, it's,

Ash Faraj  26:05

I think the two pieces is like, I think I still got to make the transition. But like, I focus so much on like, attracting audience, but the problem is, you saw they set the track that we have to retain the audience, that's the real work, that's,

Melinda Lee  26:19

you know, that would be headlines, or there be content that would just get so popular, and it was always something that BuzzFeed did. And, and so not being part of BuzzFeed, but watching what they would do in this space. It was like, how did they do that? Wow. Okay, and then a lot of their learnings, you know, when when folks would get interviewed, or if they talk about it, you know, it'd be like, Oh, that's how BuzzFeed did. Okay, great. Well, let's, let's try it, you know, let's, let's, let's try that to work or make up videos. Right. So I, I would always watch BuzzFeed, so I basically had a company crush on on what they do, you know, but none of us really knew. And, and then when I got there, I realized that they're really good at what they do, you know, they knew how to read the signals in the space for and they knew how to create content with a purpose towards, you know, either get you being shared or attacking an audience and, and they had extremely talented content creators that that could do that thing could react,

Ash Faraj  27:29

I just have to ask because even though it's running over, but what I guess if you could give, like some advice to somebody who is starting a media channel, or let's say is, is, once they get their foot in the door, and media, or like, you know, is new to media for audience in particular, like, you know, how to build an audience, or how to speak to an audience. So if you can give some, like, I guess, concise advice, what would it be?

Melinda Lee  27:52

I think one is like, know what audience you want to attract. So that that's really important, right? I think many times people get really hung up on like, scale, and I have this much of an audience, but but I think knowing who you want to reach is really important. And understanding your audience is important, because that's going to inform the type of content you create, right? You know, or the video that that you create. The other is, I would, I would already look at I mean, barrier to entry for content creation is very low, right? So I would look at who's out there that inspires you and is speaking to the same audience. And I think one way that could really work is collaborating with them. You know, and being like, here's, here's what you're doing. And I think it's fantastic. Here's what I'm gonna put out there, here's where it's different. But I would love to really, you know, I would love to collaborate with you. And maybe we can, you know, we can we can figure out a way where it works for both of us. But if you go to a channel that already has an audience, and then you want to offer something that's a little bit different from you know, the that channel, I think that if you can come up with a great way to work together, you can share audiences, but then you can also have separate audiences where you can both continue to grow your audiences, right. So it's like, it's kind of like mutually beneficial in that way.

Ash Faraj  29:20

Something I look for when I decide to partner with someone or hire someone is

Melinda Lee  29:25

character. There's a kindness there. There's a willingness to mentor, there's a willingness to learn. There was a curiosity. And I think that there also isn't a huge ego.

Ash Faraj  29:43

The most important quality in a leader is

Melinda Lee  29:46

understanding how we achieve goals together as a team.

Ash Faraj  29:52

Something I've struggled with as a leader has been,

Melinda Lee  29:55

I've struggled with a lot, but one that really comes to mind, I've always been a little bit futuristic, right? So it's like, I can think I think I see what the future will be. And I just want to be there. And so many times what I've had to learn is, that's great. But we're here now,

Ash Faraj  30:18

something I do to make sure I feel positive and stay productive is

Melinda Lee  30:23

I do this thing where it's like a weekly planning. And I look at, you know, the person that I want to be ultimately. And then I look at, you know, short term goals, long term goals write in every week, and then I started to kind of put in and scheduling different things that will help me be that person. And I am really consistent with this. So I've been doing it at this point for probably over five years,

Ash Faraj  30:53

if I were to go back and talk to my younger self, I would tell myself,

Melinda Lee  30:58

look at myself five years from now, and say, with all the decisions that feel like they're the most important decisions in the world, five years from now, you're going to be proud of the person that you were now. And the decision that you're making

Ash Faraj  31:10

one setback or failure in my early 20s, I will never forget is,

Melinda Lee  31:15

well, I had the opportunity to train for the Olympic team for Taekwondo. I was in college at the time, I saw that Taekwondo was, you know, in the Olympics, you know, and I have always been relatively good athletically. And so I came up with the club up here in, importantly, where the Olympic champion was, would have had a club and I met him and I, and, you know, he basically said, look like us, I think you have the talent, you know, but I don't know, if you have the heart, you know, to train. And at the time, my big classrooms where I go to law school, or do I take this year off and train, or maybe even just go part time, you know, and train with my parents, because I did this. And they were like, Look, you know, you may or may not go, you know, do well, if you go down this path, but if you study really hard, you know, you know that you're always going to, you know, be at war, I think there's a piece of me that will always want to be or understand what it feels like to be an athlete.

Ash Faraj  32:34

Okay, well, on a more positive note, the sweetest moment I felt in my entire career was when

Melinda Lee  32:39

every time I've left a company back, there is that like, going away that that's gathering. And in that last gathering, your team comes. And then colleagues, I mean a lot to you. And you kind of talk about like what it was like to be in the trenches, or like certain moments on certain projects that in my case, got off the ground or, you know, launch. And there's always that piece of like, Hey, we did this together and sad to see you go.

Ash Faraj  33:13

Looking forward. If I could be remembered for just one thing it would be,

Melinda Lee  33:16

I think that I would like to be the manager, the leader that wasn't afraid to take a chance on people. And the last one is, if I were stranded on an island, and I had access to one meal, it would be you know, 30 right. So I would like the perfect pairing. And I would like there to be some form of drink, whether it's alcoholic or not that pairs really well with all the different like flavor profiles, so salty, sweet. Oh, mommy. But if the idea isn't just as good as about pairing,

Ash Faraj  34:01

well that's the end of the show. Thank you so so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, we just ask that you please please please leave a quick quick quick rating and review on Apple podcasts. That is our currency means the world to us. They listened and it means the world to us if you just leave a quick rating review. Thank you so much. We hope to see you again next week. Take care